The Future of Membership Sites: Hosting, Automation, and AI with Melodie Moore

[00:00] Micah: Hey, everybody. Micah Mitchell here, CEO of Membarium. And I have with us Melody Moore of Business Tech Ninjas. Melody, thank you for joining us today.

[00:08] Melodie: It's a delight to be here, Micah.

[00:11] Micah: I am also delighted and always excited to talk to you because you are one of the people who has been in the space a long time. You've been certified with Membarium. You were the first Membarium certified partner over a decade now and have been in the tech and automation space for about 15 years, I think. And that actually gives me a perfect place to start. I was wondering what got you, I know you were working with somebody, but what got you interested in tech and websites and all this stuff in the very beginning?

[00:41] Melodie: I had to build one out for myself. And the business that I did at that point was not nearly as much fun as building up websites. And then from there, it was like, how do I do more things with this? And then automation came naturally from there. And now we're into AI and it's the technologies and tools that we have now, as opposed to 15 years ago, are just light years different. And it's only just become more and more fun over time.

[01:07] Micah: Yeah, it is. It is actually more fun. It's a weird space, challenging, and sometimes a little bit frightening with some of the new tech, just meaning, are you going to be the one to capitalize or somebody else? But it is actually pretty fun. What have you built? And for those, a lot of people already know you, but for those who don't know you, tell us a little bit about that journey, 10, 15 or so years in the space. Where are you today?

[01:30] Melodie: When I started out with a lot of people, I was just an admin, going in, making websites, doing stuff. But as I got clients, their needs changed. They were doing a couple, three, four hundred thousand, and then all of a sudden they're multimillion dollar companies. And the needs of a multimillion dollar company are very different. You don't just need somebody to get the task done. You really need a technologist. You really need somebody that understands not just what it is that they're doing day to day, but how to implement it properly and then how to design a system about it. A lot of companies fall into the trap of that piecemeal type, like siloed automations that don't really talk to each other. Whereas what you want is a system that works with it, works to make your life easier. And that's when becoming a technologist really is fruitful. And that's what we've done at Business Tech Ninjas is to train one, my team, but also to train others to be technologists, because it's like having an accountant or a lawyer. You need somebody that knows the tech.

[02:26] Micah: Yeah, I've never thought of it that way, but that is pretty interesting. I think people initially can get away with almost like little hacks. Oh, look what I did. Look here, I made a website or an app or whatever. But when they're not talking to each other and you start to get big problems. Tell me a little bit about some of the clients you serve. So I think they're like seven figure and multi seven figure, these big businesses. You mentioned they have different needs. What are they often doing and for who?

[02:50] Melodie: A lot of certifications. So we've got certifications around tax. We do, we serve a company that helps people get their licenses for becoming a bookkeeper type idea. A lot around certifications with IT as well. And the needs of those companies really do. You get a high return on smoothing out the user experience on stuff, both for your team internally and then also for your customers, because every bad customer experience leads to more support tickets, unhappy customers. And then you also get customers like your best customers are not the ones that are emailing it and complaining. Your best customers are like, this is annoying and they cancel and then never come back. So you really want to keep that in mind because that those customers leaving out that back door really start to hurt when you get that that seven figure mark. And unless you're keeping track of your numbers, you just don't see it. All of a sudden, your bottom line is a lot lower than it was before.

[03:47] Micah: Gotcha. So a lot of these businesses, you're saying you're helping them with retention in a way.

[03:52] Melodie: Retention. Yeah. And that's our sweet spot. Like most of the companies that we work with, they have a proven business model. They've got business coming in. Their challenge is the operations of it and utilizing the best technology to one, serve their customers, make sure their team is actually using the tech too. Because I don't know if you've ever heard this, but like we've got this great new tool and the team is really excited about it. And then six months goes by and it's like, nobody's actually using us. And that's why you need a technologist is because that's the technologist's job is to make sure that the tool actually does the job it's supposed to. Because similar to putting in a new bookkeeping system, if somebody's not entering in those bookkeeping items properly, the tool doesn't do its job. And I think people over that we've been sold this lie that technology is easy. It can be, but somebody needs to work that. And that's why you need a technologist.

[04:46] Micah: Yeah, that makes sense. I sell software and I sell it on the benefits of it being used. But between those two things, somebody like you has to come in and actually help the person build the site, whatever.

[04:57] Melodie: It's like my exercise coach is, yeah, I can give you all the advice in the world, but if you don't eat right and exercise, it's not going to work.

[05:06] Micah: Yeah, that one's brutal, right? Accountability on eating. Let me ask you this. So you've gotten to this point where you're now help, you have the experience to help clients who are themselves experienced and are dealing with a little bit more complex issues. What were some of the struggles that you face along the way or kind of things that you learned? Because you didn't, you weren't born with this knowledge. So how did you acquire it?

[05:30] Melodie: A lot of experimentation. And I, I have the unique perspective of being somebody that is highly emotional. Like I care about people a great deal, but also very systems minded. And that's a very unique combination in the marketplace because most people are either very heart centered and they're like, that's okay. You don't need, you don't need to pay the bill or very systems mindset where they are like, oh, people don't exist. The tool does this. Why don't people just do what they're supposed to do? And I really combine those two to understand how the technology can actually work for people and how people can actually work with the technology and really understanding those two. And I think a lot of the challenges that I've seen both internally with my team and then also within clients is that oftentimes people will really edge on one side of that. And there's a balance between the two. You want to make sure that you're putting the right expectations on people, but also the tool is meant to do a job for somebody. I love the developer line where a developer will custom build something for you. And they're like, it works. And you're like, okay, so what do I have to do? And they're like, okay, in order to send the email, you just need to go in, manually put their email inbox in there, click this button, do this dropdown, and then you hit send. That's all I have to do. Yeah, that's all you have to do in a form. But if you don't click that third box, everything will break and nothing will work. And this is acceptable to you. Yep, it works. The tool does what it's supposed to do. And it's like the most frustrating conversations. The tool is supposed to make the work easier, not make it harder for people. And I think that's really that gap that I've seen is that people will really err on one side of become too people focused or too technically focused. And we need to really have that gap between the two.

[07:27] Micah: So how do you mention you not only do services, but it sounds like you train the team of your clients and get them up to speed. How do you approach that process?

[07:38] Melodie: We do. And when we because in my mind, if I, Micah, I'm going to give you a Ferrari, but you don't know how to drive. What good is a Ferrari to you? And when we're building out systems and technology, one, the internal team knows the business better than we are ever going to. We are an outside service provider. They're in there every single day working those systems, talking to clients. So they know how to make it better than anybody else. So we really come at it from a collaborative aspect of our job as technologists is to know the tech really well and to collaborate with you to understand, OK, but how does your business work right now? And how do we find that middle ground between the two so that you can utilize technology really well and how we train people is one helping them to adopt the technologist mindset on a very basic level and an operator level, at least to understand, like, what is tech like to get that kind of mindset first. And then, too, you bring them along in the process. We are a big fan of week by week meetings. And then every week it's it's hard to do a three month project. OK, now we're going to train you on this system we've been working for three months on. But if you do the week by week and can see how it's grown and they've had impact into actually being able to shape that system, then they're being trained throughout that on how it works. And then at the end of the day, it's not like a clean handoff, but they're able to drive that car and like maybe you need an oil change or your car is pumped up or your tires pumped up at some point in time. And that's where we can come in and help. But you should know how to drive that car. Your team should know how to drive that car and not one person in the company because you don't as a business owner, you cannot have one person or one team knowing all of your tech and being dependent on them because they they might want to go find themselves in Thailand at some point in time. They might have a spiritual awakening. And for a lot of the companies that we work with, their websites isn't they're not just part of their business. It is their business. So you want to put your technical infrastructure in the hands of one person that very well might want to go find themselves in Thailand for a couple of years. No, bad idea. Or in the same light, an agency, an outside provider like that is a company asset.

[10:11] Micah: Yeah, it makes sense. I guess not just the owner's manual, but the knowledge within the company is an asset. Yeah.

[10:17] Melodie: Multiple different people, too. You want multiple people to be and it also keeps people accountable, too. If one person is allowed to do whatever they want, then they tend to cut corners and do whatever they want.

[10:29] Micah: Yeah, it makes sense. I want to get into some specific questions and your advice and talk about dedicated servers. But just before we do, I'm curious also about where do you see your company going or where do you see the services you provide, the membership industry going in the next while?

[10:47] Melodie: I really believe technology should be easier. And a large part of why it's so hard is not because the tools don't exist. At one point in time, it's like the tools just didn't exist. We didn't have the capabilities. But now we've got more tools than we can possibly know how to choose. It's about having people that can actually implement it effectively without making your life harder. There's so many stories, both internally and what I've heard of. We thought this tool was going to make life easier. And now our lives are just way more complex. Can we just go back to manual spreadsheets? And it pains my heart to hear that because a manual spreadsheet is not as good as an automation tool ever. But a poorly implemented automation tool is a spreadsheet would be better than that. And so where I see my company going is really training technologists and helping people to understand the mindset of that because you need a particular kind of mind to be a technologist. My favorite kind of people are with ADD and ADHD because that kind of mind tends to be able to connect lots of different things and be all over the place. And so it's very well suited to the kind of work that we do. But then they need a specific training because somebody that works in tech can't be overly documented. I can't give my team a checklist every single time we set up a member memberium site. Certainly we have checklists where like the fundamentals need to be checked off. But there's so much nuance to tech that you need people that are actually thinking through what it is that they're doing. And this comes down to a concept of self-leadership that we teach, which is fundamental to being a good technologist.

[12:25] Micah: Because you could update memberium tomorrow.

[12:29] Melodie: And my checklist is now out of date. We have a site that needs to be launched by end of week. Okay, are they going to come back to me and put that back on my plate? No, a technologist pushes it forward and makes it happen. And we have a training process to help people to really get that because most of our world is not trained in that way these days. It's compliance-based. Just do the thing that you're told to do. But tech, it don't work like that.

[12:53] Micah: Give me a short kind of version of a training for a technologist. Like you keep mentioning the term and saying that's what you're creating. So let's say somebody is watching this or listening to this and they don't consider themselves a technologist. Is it only people of a certain type that can take on that mindset? You mentioned the ADD thing is maybe a strength for these people, which I love. But yeah, do you look, let's say you're working with a company and you look at their staff. Do you say, oh, Johnny can do it, but Mary can't?

[13:22] Melodie: I don't think anybody can't. I think that there are people that definitely have more of a natural aptitude to it. And really it comes down to a curiosity and a willingness to get something wrong. It's not necessarily something that's ingrained like this person was born with the technology and this person was born without the technology. It's more of a curiosity of being able to try something and troubleshoot going forward and being okay with getting it wrong. We don't work in nuclear power where if you click the wrong button, people will die.

[13:54] Micah: I will say that being said, sometimes when you're saying like sometimes bad automation is not as good as a spreadsheet, it's like you can cause some pretty bad problems. You can.

[14:05] Melodie: And that's where I think the training comes on. If it's not about a lot of people think about training in a very black and white manner where it's like you're I'm going to be trained on how to make a web page. But as a technologist, you're not trained in how to do something, you're trained in how to think through something. And for many years, I was very frustrated with team members I would hire because I was like, why don't you get this? Like, why? And then after a time, I was like, I have a very specific, I have a very systems oriented mind. And so what was really obvious to me was not obvious to them. So I've really taken the time to help train my team now in that thinking process of thinking through problems and thinking through what they're doing and thinking through communication and really help them that. And it really was for selfish reasons that I like to work with smart people. I like to do fun things and I don't want to do it all myself. So it's like I need people that can perform at the level that I expect of myself so that we can build out cooler projects. And I'm incredibly proud of the projects and things we've been able to deliver for clients, which is in less time for less money than what much larger agencies are able to do.

[15:15] Micah: Yeah, I know you guys are smart. We use one of your plugins. I think you created something not really intending to create a plugin or have a software, but it fit our need. And that's cool. All right. So now knowing where you're coming from, let's dive in a little bit to hosting because I know that's a hot button issue right now. So people are paying a bunch of money for really crappy hosting. I know that the hosting can affect not only their actual user experience, but also potentially their sales, cancellations. Let's start at the top. Give me your high-level theory on how people should think about hosting their membership site or course.

[15:53] Melodie: So hosting, a lot of our clients don't even know what hosting is. Like when we're building out a site, we usually have to go through stuff. So I'm just going to start there and describe what that is. It's basically the computer that has your site on it. So when people type in www.businesstechninjas.com, they're going to be able to find those files. And you need a company that's going to host those files. And typically the most common hosting companies you'll hear about, GoDaddy would be one, WP Engine, SiteGround. I'm trying to think of some other common ones that people would have. There are like what I call backroom hosts too, which is like my buddy Jim. He hosts it. I heard about him somewhere. Don't recommend those guys, but whatever. It is what it is. And the challenge is for a lot of people, the standard hosts like WP Engine, SiteGround, GoDaddy. There's Bluehost too. Please don't use Bluehost. Just don't. Dreamhost also. No, just don't. They might have gotten better over the years, but I still don't think that they have. For a lot of sites, specifically not membership sites, if you just need a postcard site that's a page with some text on it, go for any of them, it doesn't really matter. Think of it like my Ferrari needs premium gas. My Honda Accord, you're going to be just fine with the regular gas. You don't need that souped up stuff. But if you're going to be running a membership site, it needs more juice. It has a higher capacity for its needs of what it needs. If you're going to have a membership site and you're also going to have your checkout on your site, it's going to need even more than that. And that's when those hosts start to get that glass ceiling, because they make money on putting people in really big apartment buildings and putting as many people in those apartment buildings as possible, because that increases their revenues. And what happens when you get a seven-figure company in one of those apartment buildings is that they need more. And they start taking over the resources of other sites. And then all of a sudden, like, their sites start getting slow. They'll see 404, 403 errors. And then we know when we've outgrown shared hosting, when you start spending more time troubleshooting your hosting than anything else. It becomes a week-by-week conversation. Why are we getting a 404? Oh, it's because of this. What's this error? Why'd the site go down? Oh, I don't know. And the hosting company will commonly say, no problem, Mecca. Just upgrade to our next plan. But Melody, it's triple the cost. We're paying $200 a month, and now you want us to pay $800 a month. Yeah, that's your only option here. That's all you can do. And that's typically the conversation we hear an awful lot. And I got just frustrated with it, because it was like client after client. We're having the same conversation with these hosting companies, and they didn't actually know what the problems were. Like, what upper limit were we actually reaching on this shared hosting plan? Because honestly, the support people that you're chatting with or the salesperson you're chatting with, they don't know. They're not engineers. They are told they have been given a checklist, and they have been given a script of what they're supposed to say to you, and they have no idea what they're actually talking about. I'm sure there are exceptions to this rule, but that has been my general experience. And so what ends up happening is that you pay the $800. And we've done this now with a couple of clients because, hey, we are a tech agency of technologists, so we'll handle whatever tech problem you throw at us. And so when we go down this pathway together, we're in it together. And we're like, okay, I want to upgrade. So we had one client that did this with DreamHost. They were already on DreamHost. They had a private server with DreamHost. And I was like, yeah, this will be fine. The DreamHost people were like, no, Melody, this server is going to do everything that you want it to do.

[19:55] Micah: I'm like, okay, this one will be different.

[19:59] Melodie: I know it. I can see the sparkle in my eye. And then what inevitably happened is we upgraded it and tripled their costs and the site continued to go down. And what happens when sites go, there was one of the, during one of their like big launches of live event, it's stressful. Very stressful. Clients are unhappy every single time.

[20:20] Micah: And DreamHost swore up and down that it would not go down, just upgrade to this higher server. So it went down again. And we're like, I can't.

[20:32] Melodie: My blood pressure cannot take the site going down again. And I was like, we need to look at other options. So I started like looking at the actual specs of those servers. As it turns out, the server that they sold us is probably about 10 years old. Like you could not get older hardware, essentially. And they were charging the same amount of money as the other server, but the other server was actually five years older. But they were charging the same amount of money for both of them.

[20:59] Micah: And that's when I gave up on that fairy tale of hosting companies.

[21:08] Melodie: And because they swore to us up and down, exact same server, exact same setup. And I was like, I just cannot trust these companies anymore. And so what we did is, okay, like there's got to be a better way. And thankfully, because of the technology and the way technology has evolved, you can buy your own hardware now pretty easily. And so that's what I started to look into. So I was like, okay, hey, what am I, what a hardware I'm actually paying for from DreamHost. And then it turns out that same hardware that we were paying $600 for a month with, Direct, is $123. The latest technology, the latest systems, the latest everything, $123 compared to $600.

[21:52] Micah: We moved them to the $123 one, had a launch this weekend, have not had another 403 or 404 error, handled all of the traffic, no problem.

[22:05] Melodie: Beautiful.

[22:07] Micah: So what I want to be nerdy here and say, did you ever figure out what limit on DreamHost it was hitting? Like database, like connection, storage, like what was happening?

[22:17] Melodie: It was, it's just, think about your computer from seven years ago. Run Adobe Photoshop on that computer. Let's say you have the same specs on two computers. One of them is from seven years ago. Like the rate at which the technology, even if it does have the same specs, it just takes more effort on that older hardware than the newer hardware.

[22:41] Micah: Gotcha.

[22:42] Melodie: And when you are setting up your own setup, you are still renting from a company that is going to have your server somewhere. Because don't have server racks in your house. No. That idea. But instead of, you're renting. So let's just use WP Engine for example, which is a shared host that we do recommend. When you're renting from WP Engine, you pay WP Engine. And WP Engine is essentially renting space from another company that has all these servers. When you do your own setup, you go right to that server company and say, I want a server from you. And they are accountable to you. And when you're like a year or two from now, you're like, oh, this is outdated hardware. You just switch out the hardware. You can't do that with WP Engine. One, they don't tell you what hardware you're on. They say, this is the box. This is the specs. But you get complete insight when you go direct. I think of it like cutting out the middleman, the hosting middleman.

[23:43] Micah: Gotcha. Yeah. It makes me think of when you talk about the actual hardware being the real issue. I know when I was shopping for a computer recently, they were describing, yes, this older one has this number, this digit of saying it has so much RAM or whatever. But they're like, if the RAM and the processor are separate, the connection speed between is the limiting factor. Whereas now it's built into one chip. And therefore, and you're like, oh, okay. It's like you're saying, like newer tech is, it might have similar specs, like some of the keys that they measure and try to compare with other hosts. But the way it is configured can make a huge difference. That's why when you upgrade your phone, often it's faster. It's really interesting. I have another kind of, I hope it's not a digression type question. When you do a dedicated server, so you're saying, hey, hosting company, I want my own server. How does that relate to cloud hosting? Because I know a lot of people want to be in the cloud. So does the dedicated server have like backup or redundancy or not?

[24:44] Melodie: How do I see a bowl? Is what I've learned. This idea, because I've gone in my great search to understand servers because I'm someone that can't stand not knowing an answer to something. So I've chatted with a lot of people that are a lot smarter on servers than I am, honestly. And I asked the same question. I was like, but we must be on cloud hosting. Everybody says that cloud hosting is the be all end all. And it really is just a buzz term of what it actually means. The alternative to cloud hosting is a bare metal server. And to go back to your backups, you can do a backup on a bare metal server just the same you can on a cloud. The main difference on a cloud server is that you have these like magical partitions on there where everybody else can be on this. So you get back into that whole shared type mindset with a cloud server. Whereas on bare metal, you get more hardware. There's not really any negative impacts that I've been able to find from it. And so it's from my knowledge, and I am not a server expert. I have contacted and asked the questions of server experts to understand this question myself and have really wondered the same thing. But everybody says that you need cloud servers.

[26:04] Micah: And what I hear time and time again is that, yeah, okay, sure, cloud server, but it's not as good.

[26:12] Melodie: And they go into some detail on it. But the gist of it that I get is it is just a buzz term. That they're hosted somewhere in the cloud, but it doesn't. And I know there are actual differences there. But I don't think that as an end user, you would really have any negative implications from it. And what you can get from a bare metal server, which is like your there's a physical box somewhere that is yours. On a hardware perspective, you're going to get much more bang for your buck. And like any of the backups are still done. So if the backups are the thing, like you still have backups to the cloud, you still have backups. And you can do multiple different redundancies of that server to the cloud, but you don't have to have a cloud server for that.

[26:57] Micah: Yeah, that makes sense. And I think for a membership site in particular, cloud or caching and all those things are actually somewhat problematic sometimes maybe versus, like you're saying, your own direct server. For those, yeah, go ahead.

[27:12] Melodie: Caching is one of the number one reasons why I like having our own servers, as opposed to using like a hosting company, because every single time the hosting company swears to me up, down and right. No, we will not check that button to cache your account page. We cross our hearts and hope to die. We are not going to cache that account page. And I'm like, so my customers are complaining that their credit card information has somebody else's credit card information on there. So I'm thinking that somebody checked that box.

[27:44] Micah: And they're like, one of our system updates checked that box.

[27:50] Melodie: We're so sorry. I was like, so now I have a PCI compliance issue, because somebody on your team or something happened that checked the box that it wasn't supposed to check the box. And private information of my customers got shown to other customers. I was like, no, cannot have that. When you have your own box, you have complete control, because you're not going through another middleman where they're trying, because their goal is they need to systematize hosting so that they can sell it to as many people as possible, because that's how they make money. So they, and they want to make sure, because most sites do want that level of caching because they want speed. So then your site gets bulked in with all of them. And then you get that checkbox and then they don't care. They're like, what's your problem that your customers got? You now have a compliance issue on your phone. They don't care. They got your $200, $800 a month or whatever that money is.

[28:47] Micah: Yeah. It's hosting companies are interesting, right? They're running a business. They're trying to make money. And especially where they just don't understand the membership concept very well. They're so much into like, how do we get these pages out quicker and duplicate faster versus like you're saying, this page has someone's proprietary information on it. You cannot, you can't cache that page. Let's, I guess, let's bring this to a conclusion and just say, I guess your recommendation is for people to rent a dedicated server directly. And you can basically help them with that and help them, I think, tune the server so that it really matches up.

[29:22] Melodie: And you don't need it right away. Like I'm talking once you get to scale, like you're, you've got at least a hundred, couple hundred members. It depends. The number of members doesn't matter so much as the revenue number, I would say more. And whether you're doing like checkouts and how big your site is. It's when you get, when you start running into issues consistently, where you're getting timeout issues and customers are having a bad experience. You're spending more time troubleshooting your site than you are trying to grow your business. That's when it makes sense to move to your own shared server. I just had a conversation with this with a client. We're doing a new build right now, or they've got this really cool, like check-in functionality with their site where advisors can go in and access content. And we're having this exact conversation of, okay, what do we do? And I told them, I was like, you can do the shared server thing, but honestly, like there is a cost to setting it up. There's a cost to the different accounts. It's overkill for you right now. Give your, you might never need this server. If you have 30, 40 people going on your site every month, like you, I don't think you'll need it. But if you are hitting that upper ceiling where you're running into these issues, my recommendation would be to just get on your own setup. Stop believing the fairy tale of what those hosting companies are telling you. Because it is a fairy tale.

[30:37] Micah: Yeah. And what's crazy too, I'm not sure they're all this way and I won't name names, but basically we upgraded our hosting once for a launch. And then they were like, we can't actually downgrade from that plan without re- and it's so hold on. You can upgrade for a temporary spike and you cannot downgrade it and things like that. It's just crazy. Let's jump around to some other topics because I know you, you just have a ton of experience and knowledge. I know you lean into the technology. So let's talk about a new one a little bit. I think you have really interesting points when we talk on AI and how to use it and especially like self-reflection. How are some of your clients, maybe these other membership sites, whatever they're doing, are they using AI yet? If so, in what ways?

[31:18] Melodie: I think the most common one is an AI coach of creating a version of themselves that your members can interact with. And we have a couple, we have one tool that we particularly like right now that does it really well out of the box. I'd say it takes an hour to set up. You want to test it and refine it though. Delphi is the one that we really like. It, you got to keep in mind, like it's an hour to set up, but you want to talk to it. And you want to see your people talking to it and you want to look at those responses and make sure you've really tuned them in because it is an AI. It's kind of like, I think of it as a really bad, really capably bad assistant. And you want to make sure that they're doing the right things versus just kind of like that trust. You want to trust, but you also want to verify.

[32:05] Micah: Yeah, you got to talk to it a lot. We have a support bot on our site and that's a good way to put it, like just a really bad support agent. It can help sometimes. And I'm not saying we want it to be bad, but it is the reality. It's not a thinking human.

[32:17] Melodie: I like it. Your support box actually helped me figure out a couple of things. There was one I came back and was like, actually, this is a little wrong. And I emailed support. I was like, you got to go fix this.

[32:28] Micah: Good. I know Milisov is always tuning it, which I love, like trying to feed back in some stuff. What are some ways that you think courses have changed? So you've been in this a minute. Let's take 10 years. The course of 10 years ago and the course of today, how are they different? Would you say, or the membership, these businesses?

[32:46] Melodie: I mean, like a lot in business, courses were easier 10 years ago. You put out a course and people are like, oh my gosh, an online course. This is amazing. So cutting edge. And now it's just, who doesn't have a course? It's like, there's so many courses and so many memberships out there. Like people are a little bit oversaturated. And I think the other aspect is I don't want another course. I want to lose 50 pounds. So I don't want to take your 12 week course. I want to lose 50 pounds. So people are a lot more poignant on really what's the result that they want, which is why I think we've seen the rise of student learning is success path type idea of helping to understand like what's the end result that people need. And the other thing is really more of a multidimensional way of thinking about learning and thinking about how to deliver your content. Of course, I think of it a little bit like the difference between a set menu and a buffet and courses within themselves are really more of a set menu option, but I want more of a buffet. And so when I, let's take an example of something, something I'm trying to learn right now, what am I trying to learn right now? For instance, I, we recently got certified with Go High Level and they have a course that you go through, but then you also want to have a buffet option of that, of how, how does Go High Level help me to get what I need to get me to an end result? So the course should give me like that base level knowledge. I don't think courses shouldn't be more than an hour, honestly, at least to break it up. And then you should be able to build on the different sections and then also be able to apply whatever it is that you're learning. And that's one thing that we use to train our technologists because I've gone through so many iterations of trying to train people. And what I found works the best is you have people go and consume content, apply it right away, and then have an application right away too. And then you test it afterwards. So it's kind of three different phases. It's like the initial get into it, apply it, you need about seven repetitions at least. And then you take that final exam because it goes, we just have too much information now. And if you're going to apply this to something like weight loss, one of the things that we're working with on our clients is you want to make their progress really clear to them, regardless of whether they complete all of the different modules. It's like, how can you show them you were here and now you're here? And to really flag that up and then give them that encouragement. And that's where AI is really helpful. I think that's what we're going to continue to see the rise of. We've had conversations about this, of that AI that will really motivate people and keep people going. Like we're really looking for more of a conversation with content as opposed to just consuming content. And the community is a big part of that as well.

[35:46] Micah: Yeah, I love what you just said there, like a conversation almost with the content. And I think you're right about AI being able to fill in some of that because it used to be, for example, a member would come in and you'd say, what's your goal? And then you would like feed that goal back to them, right? But an AI can say, okay, I now understand their goal and that they move from here to here. And I can like adjust my feedback to them and say, hey, you're almost there.

[36:10] Melodie: You just got to do D, E, and F.

[36:12] Micah: You already did A, B, and C. You're close, right? And customize it. And like you said, be maybe more encouraging. You can give it a tone and things like that. I'm now playing with a couple of different AIs. And some of the time I'll be having a conversation and be like, oh, wow, that's, I don't want to become a weirdo who's just talking to AI all the time. But that was like very good. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. Let's play it forward. So we talked about, okay, 10 years ago, it was easier. And funny enough, it was like, if you could make a course, it sold easier, but it was actually harder to make the course. So now technology has made it easier to make them and now it's saturated. Let's fast forward maybe 10 years. Where do you see these courses and memberships? Where do you see these businesses?

[36:59] Melodie: I think AI is going to be like root of it for sure. Of like the courses that I think more programs, I think is a better term. Like we're probably going to move away from courses altogether. It might be more of like a program that you're enrolling in to get you from A to Z. And everybody's going to have a personalized AI. And you're going to have your personalized AI within that program. And I could even, it's hard because it's like our society is going to change dramatically. Like it's already changing so much right now. The rate of change from technology, like AI is essentially like how much our lives change

[37:37] Micah: with the internet and what that has done.

[37:39] Melodie: It's similarly is what's going to happen with the rise of AI. That's like even you listen to some of the great thinkers about the people that are running these AI companies and they don't even know. We're all just trying to guess the best we can. My optimistic view is it'll make our lives better. There's differing opinions on that.

[37:57] Micah: If we're going to look specifically at our space, I think people are going to fall in love

[38:03] Melodie: with learning more again. Yeah. That's my goal. At least that's what, that's the future I would like to see with this is that, you know, there's a lot of people that are truly very unhappy. And I think part of what brings us fulfillment is learning new things and feeling good at something. I think that's more of what it is. It's not just about the learning. It's like feeling like you've developed some level of skill in something. And I think what can be hard about developing a skill in something is judgment, both self-judgment and judgment from those around you. But if you're working with an AI to get better at a skill, somehow it makes it less personal. So for me right now, I'm working on becoming less wordy with how I explain things. And so I put all of my videos into an AI and it's harsh. May I add, I got to admit, like I might have to tell it to be a little kinder at times, but it's almost easier working with the AI on that than it is hiring somebody that really knows video content, because I know it's not putting any of its own stuff into it. It's just, here's my goal. I want to be better. I want to be clearer. And I want people to get really good value out of the content that I create. And it's, yeah, Melody, I want that for you too, 100%. And so its feedback is very much in line with that. Whereas if you're working with another person, they might very well want that, but they also want all of their own things from it too. And that's not any disservice on them. That's just what we are as human beings. So I would think that because we're going to have this access, that it'll enable us to become better and become more skilled at work. At least that's my hope. The possible other outcome is that we'll become de-skilled. And I think that's a really real fear and risk.

[39:53] Micah: I see it already happening with my team where they have stopped, they become overly reliant

[39:59] Melodie: on AI. So then they stop doing the thing, but then they, you will lose that skill. And we need to be cognizant of that, of AI is an enhancer, not a replacement. If you use it as a replacement to not amplify your skills, then I think there's some negative consequences to that potentially.

[40:24] Micah: Yeah, it makes sense. It's probably similar to a smartphone. If somebody is sitting and just scrolling mindlessly and consuming things that aren't really helpful versus somebody who uses their phone all the time to be more, a lot more effective. Yeah. It's, it makes me think of my 13 year old son. He can't write cursive, but he can type like 90 words a minute, just from playing computer games, like not even trying to type. And when I had him take a typing test, I was like, Oh, he's way better than I am. That's embarrassing. So I'm sure there will be some, some huge gain and some loss, some trade-off probably. Like anything. Yeah, exactly. It is interesting when I think back at about the last 10 years, things aren't that different, right? You would probably 10 years ago, somebody would have thought, Oh, we're going to have AI and virtual reality and all these things.

[41:12] Melodie: But you look at it today and it's like, yeah, we're still, things are changing, but we are still

[41:17] Micah: doing largely the same things, right?

[41:20] Melodie: Watching videos, reading text online, like a lot of the same stuff. I know it will change, but sometimes I think the changes like the technologist's vision of

[41:31] Micah: the future takes a little longer to arrive, which is, it's a bell curve too.

[41:36] Melodie: Like we're like, I'm definitely one that's on the more like really into it, but it, to get our clients even do some of the things like it, it takes them a little bit longer as far as like they're building out their own business. They've got a lot of other stuff, like technology is what we do when I eat, breathe and live every single day. Whereas I think some people will just take a bit. Cause I think we don't take, we don't take into account how hard behavior changes. Yes. We like things staying the same. Comfort is a very motivating factor for people.

[42:08] Micah: Really good points, actually really good points. So let me ask you, I'm just thinking of the last question.

[42:15] Melodie: I feel like this is going to be like an intense question. I should prepare myself.

[42:19] Micah: Yeah, no, I think we've mostly hit everything. So I'll just ask a more fun one. If you could for your own business and maybe even the way that your business impacts clients, if you could wave a magic wand and change anything about it, what would it be?

[42:36] Melodie: I right now want to have more AI employees. And the reason being is it will really up our quality of work. Testing specifically is a big thing that I would like to do more of. And I think that it can really enhance my team because it just does take time. And the challenge is that a lot of the companies that we're working with, yes, they're doing well financially, but it's still hard to justify five hours to go through really intense testing on things. And somebody has to pay for that. But if we can have an AI to go and spend that time, the five hours, and you don't have to pay a person to go and do it, and a person's only spending an hour on that to go through the results, then we get a much higher quality of work for the same, if not less money. And I think that's really what it is. Like we want a better quality of work for less money and less time and less effort.

[43:26] Micah: It's an interesting answer because it makes me think AI is rounding a corner where maybe a year ago it would create more slop and more pain and more headache really than it was worth. But I'm hearing from you and other people too. But during this call a few times, this theme of it's actually going to do a better job. Not worse. It's not a lower level thing at certain tasks. It's actually better for various reasons. It might be more consistent. It might be less judgmental, like you said, or not muddy the creative process as much perhaps. But yeah, it's a really interesting answer. I like that.

[43:57] Melodie: I think there's still a lot of, the reason why I haven't done that is it takes time to train them. Once it's trained, it's good. But carving out that time to train it well and to work through it, it is not, I am yet to find any real AI that out of the box is, oh yeah, this does everything I want it to do. It's typically like hiring a really bad assistant. That yes, they can do the things and then initially you're delighted with it, but then you say, did you fact check this before you sent it to me? And they're like, oh no, I just pulled it from Google and didn't fact check it.

[44:31] Micah: And it's like, what?

[44:35] Melodie: What were you thinking? But the, I think the opportunity is really there. And if you invest in it, then it is worth it.

[44:42] Micah: But I think that's why technologists are going to become even more important because the, that the idea that you can just do it and it's done is just not how tech works.

[44:53] Melodie: You put it in place and you've got to work it and work it. And then even when it is solid, you still want to be improving it because the technology is going to improve and you don't want to be on the same tool or something that you were a year ago. And there's something that's way better now. So it's like, you've got to be on top of it. And if you are, you'll win.

[45:13] Micah: I almost feel like you're like a technology coach. Like I know you implement it, but it's like you're a tech coach. It's cool.

[45:20] Melodie: Yeah, I can see that. And a lot of it is, honestly, the funny thing about it is I think a lot of it's personal coaching, but it shows up in tech of you've got to, when the tech doesn't work, you can't take it personally. It's just, you just, you put in X, Y, and you got C when you wanted F. All right, we'll put in a different thing. And then you'll get a different result. But we get so wrapped up in our emotions and different things that we make it all about all of these other things. So yeah, a coach and the result is better tech. But actually, it's the person that's operating your tech that needs that coaching more so. It's not the tool sign for the most part.

[46:03] Micah: Yeah, I think it's an interesting point. We should end there. Like the better their team is because the tech will keep evolving. It's not like you can learn anything and now you've made it at all. It's, you know, you got to be savvy and sharp and quick, probably more and more going forward. Melody. Yeah, it is fun. For those of us who love it, for people who love it, I'm sure they'll jam with this. For those of, you know, who are watching and maybe don't love it as much and they want to connect with you and get some coaching or some implementation or some training. What's the best way for people to reach out to you and connect with you?

[46:35] Melodie: That's our site, businesstechginges.com. We're always, you can book a free call on there. If you want us to go in and audit your tech and your team, then we'll go ahead and do that for you too. And yeah, whatever is not working with your tech, we do specialize in certification businesses, go high level, active campaign, HubSpot and keep. Because I love all forms of automation. And everyone's just learning like a new language, but the systems and the process we put in place are applicable in all of them.

[47:03] Micah: I love it. Thank you so much again for joining us.

[47:06] Melodie: Thanks for having me.